Shop  •   Avatar  •   FAQ  •   Search  •   Memberlist  •   Usergroups  •   Profile  •   Log in to check private messages  •   Log in  •  Register 

Albania!
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Tavern Goto page Previous  1, 2
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Salty Dog
Sailing Master
Posts: 10060



191991 Gold -

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, I see 56% of the UN Nations recognize Kosovo as an independent country. I guess the others do not.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Roland
Helmsman
Posts: 4083



22526 Gold -

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salty Dog wrote:
So the Serbs invaded Albania? Why was Albania on the side of Kosovo?
Why would Serbia be cleansing Albania? They would be after Kosovo, right?

The Serbs invaded Kosovo, which is populated by ethnic Albanians. They never invaded Albania itself. The surrounding countries opposed Serbia's ethnic cleansing of Kosovo, in large part because they were being flooded with millions of Kosovar Albanian refugees.

When the European powers set the borders that now define the Balkans, as the Ottoman Empire was collapsing, they screwed over the Albanians. Large populations of Albanians were left in the neighboring territories of Greece, Macedonia, Montenegro, and especially Kosovo. But since these Albanian-populated regions have never been under the governance of an independent Albania in modern times, Albania has never made an effort to acquire them. (I suspect this is, at least in part, because the incorporation of new populations would upset the internal political balance of Albania.)

Kosovo is to the Serbs what the Alamo is to Texans - the site of a romanticized military defeat that is seen as the defining moment of their history as a people. But the Ottomans pressured Serbs to emigrate from Kosovo, and most of the population gradually relocated to Vojvodina, which was then part of the Habsburg Empire but is now northern Serbia. Albanians migrated into Kosovo to fill the resulting vacuum. (In ancient times, the ancestors of the Albanians probably lived in western Kosovo before the first Slav set foot in the Balkans, so if an irredentist claim is required the Albanians could make one.) For some reason, Kosovo was included in Serbia - probably a bow to Serbian nationalism. As part of a multi-ethnic Yugoslavia it mostly worked. But when Yugoslavia broke up, the Serbs clung to the least-Serbian part of their country and did all they could to re-Serbianize it. After Montenegro (whose majority population is Orthodox Serbo-Croatian speakers, which anyone who is not a Montenegrin nationalist would call Serbs) seceded without incident, it was pretty hard for Serbia to make a reasonable claim to Kosovo. But it continues its unreasonable claim to this day. It is supported by countries like Russia and China, which have their own conquered territories populated by foreign peoples, and which therefore fear the precedent set by the break-up of Yugoslavia and the independence of Kosovo.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Salty Dog
Sailing Master
Posts: 10060



191991 Gold -

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roland wrote:
Salty Dog wrote:
So the Serbs invaded Albania? Why was Albania on the side of Kosovo?
Why would Serbia be cleansing Albania? They would be after Kosovo, right?

The Serbs invaded Kosovo, which is populated by ethnic Albanians. They never invaded Albania itself. The surrounding countries opposed Serbia's ethnic cleansing of Kosovo, in large part because they were being flooded with millions of Kosovar Albanian refugees.

When the European powers set the borders that now define the Balkans, as the Ottoman Empire was collapsing, they screwed over the Albanians. Large populations of Albanians were left in the neighboring territories of Greece, Macedonia, Montenegro, and especially Kosovo. But since these Albanian-populated regions have never been under the governance of an independent Albania in modern times, Albania has never made an effort to acquire them. (I suspect this is, at least in part, because the incorporation of new populations would upset the internal political balance of Albania.)

Kosovo is to the Serbs what the Alamo is to Texans - the site of a romanticized military defeat that is seen as the defining moment of their history as a people. But the Ottomans pressured Serbs to emigrate from Kosovo, and most of the population gradually relocated to Vojvodina, which was then part of the Habsburg Empire but is now northern Serbia. Albanians migrated into Kosovo to fill the resulting vacuum. (In ancient times, the ancestors of the Albanians probably lived in western Kosovo before the first Slav set foot in the Balkans, so if an irredentist claim is required the Albanians could make one.) For some reason, Kosovo was included in Serbia - probably a bow to Serbian nationalism. As part of a multi-ethnic Yugoslavia it mostly worked. But when Yugoslavia broke up, the Serbs clung to the least-Serbian part of their country and did all they could to re-Serbianize it. After Montenegro (whose majority population is Orthodox Serbo-Croatian speakers, which anyone who is not a Montenegrin nationalist would call Serbs) seceded without incident, it was pretty hard for Serbia to make a reasonable claim to Kosovo. But it continues its unreasonable claim to this day. It is supported by countries like Russia and China, which have their own conquered territories populated by foreign peoples, and which therefore fear the precedent set by the break-up of Yugoslavia and the independence of Kosovo.


WOW, what a MESS! Questions:
1) Since the Kosovars are Albanian, why don't they have Kosovo be a part of Albania, instead of being a small, landlocked, country that cannot possibly defend itself from larger aggressors?

2) So, the US and other NATO nations became involved to protect the other small breakaway parts of the former Yugoslavia? Or was it to protect Greece? Otherwise, it was a Serbian Civil War, right?

3) Didn't Serbia fight on the side of the Allies in both WWI and WWII? Things sure can change, can't they?

This is almost as bad as the Middle East!!! Duelling
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mr. Blue
Rigger
Posts: 1947



68403 Gold -

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salty Dog wrote:


3) Didn't Serbia fight on the side of the Allies in both WWI and WWII? Things sure can change, can't they?



Of course Japan and Italy were on our side in WWI so yeah, things change.
_________________
" ... the mistakes that we male and female mortals make when we have our own way might fairly raise some wonder that we are so fond of it. " George Eliot
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Roland
Helmsman
Posts: 4083



22526 Gold -

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salty Dog wrote:
WOW, what a MESS! Questions:
1) Since the Kosovars are Albanian, why don't they have Kosovo be a part of Albania, instead of being a small, landlocked, country that cannot possibly defend itself from larger aggressors?

2) So, the US and other NATO nations became involved to protect the other small breakaway parts of the former Yugoslavia? Or was it to protect Greece? Otherwise, it was a Serbian Civil War, right?

3) Didn't Serbia fight on the side of the Allies in both WWI and WWII? Things sure can change, can't they?

This is almost as bad as the Middle East!!! Duelling

A mess, indeed. Now you see how the Balkans got their reputation!

1) There is no precedent for Kosovo being part of an Albanian state. Because Albania was so isolated for most of its history as an independent state, it has no shared history with Kosovo - or with anyone else. But I suspect the main reason is that the political leaders of the two countries don't want to risk their positions by combining their countries. There are two Albanian subgroups - the Tosks (south) and the Ghegs (north). The Kosovar Albanians are all Ghegs, so if Kosovo were to join with Albania it might tip the balance decisively in a Gheg direction. Also, the countries that refuse to recognize Kosovo's independence would transfer their hostility to Albania if the two countries were to join.

2) NATO intervened specifically to stop the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo. The flood of refugees was threatening to destabilize the whole Balkan region.

3) Serbia is a traditional ally of the British and the French, as well as the Russians. However, any alliance with Serbia is always at Serbia's convenience. Serbia has a tendency to choose its side in larger conflicts so as to enable it to settle scores with its immediate Balkan neighbors - and those Balkan neighbors do likewise. They all have this strange nationalist mentality that assumes the more ancient a grievance, the more relevant it is to the present. Thus, they can always mine history for some grievance that serves as a rationalization for whatever might be expedient in the present.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Mr. Blue
Rigger
Posts: 1947



68403 Gold -

PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roland wrote:

3) Serbia is a traditional ally of the British and the French, as well as the Russians. However, any alliance with Serbia is always at Serbia's convenience. Serbia has a tendency to choose its side in larger conflicts so as to enable it to settle scores with its immediate Balkan neighbors - and those Balkan neighbors do likewise. They all have this strange nationalist mentality that assumes the more ancient a grievance, the more relevant it is to the present. Thus, they can always mine history for some grievance that serves as a rationalization for whatever might be expedient in the present.


You mean its a case of big powers trying to use little powers as pawns in their big games while little powers try to leverage the fights between big powers to settle scores in their little games? A familiar pattern, by no means limited to the Balkans.

I suspect that the Serbs "traditional" alliance with the British and French stemmed from their big-brother-little-brother relationship with Russia, which the Russians have used to try to influence Balkan politics, and the Serbs have used to bolster their position vis-a-vis the Croats. Since France and England shared with Russia a desire to contain expanding German power, the little brother was drawn into the big brother's circle of temporary friends. Something like that?
_________________
" ... the mistakes that we male and female mortals make when we have our own way might fairly raise some wonder that we are so fond of it. " George Eliot
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Roland
Helmsman
Posts: 4083



22526 Gold -

PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Small nations trying to recruit great powers to fight their battles for them is a recurring theme in world history.

In the Balkans in the 1990s, the British and French got the US to join them in their arms embargo against the whole of the former Yugoslavia. While this appeared superficially to be an even-handed anti-war policy, it was in practice a pro-Serbia policy. You see, Tito had built all of Yugoslavia's munitions plants in Serb-populated areas. So the embargo gave the Serbs a monopoly on armaments. NATO was, essentially, holding Bosnia in a half-nelson while the Serbian bully beat it up. It took Clinton a long time to realize he had been duped by the British and French into enabling Serbian aggression against Bosnia.

The embargo was never very effective against Croatia because that country's long coast line was impossible to patrol, enabling smugglers to break the embargo pretty easily. Land-locked Bosnia was the loser.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Red Rabbit
Cutthroat
Posts: 414



321 Gold -

PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geopolitics = big power No.1 vs big power No.2
For a small nation it's better to stay away from that.

Albania's flag is pretty nice.
Before the Albanians there were Romans and before that there were Epirus with its legendary king Pyrrhus. No man's creation lasts forever.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Roland
Helmsman
Posts: 4083



22526 Gold -

PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Red Rabbit wrote:
Albania's flag is pretty nice.

Somewhere I found an Albanian flag mod for Pirates!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Red Rabbit
Cutthroat
Posts: 414



321 Gold -

PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That flag suits well for the pirate ship because of its colors. But the two-headed eagle -symbol is just too imperialistic for the freedom-loving buccaneers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mr. Blue
Rigger
Posts: 1947



68403 Gold -

PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Red Rabbit wrote:
That flag suits well for the pirate ship because of its colors. But the two-headed eagle -symbol is just too imperialistic for the freedom-loving buccaneers.


How about a two headed parrot?
_________________
" ... the mistakes that we male and female mortals make when we have our own way might fairly raise some wonder that we are so fond of it. " George Eliot
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Salty Dog
Sailing Master
Posts: 10060



191991 Gold -

PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, Roland, do you recommend Albania and a tourist destination? I sure like visiting Croatia. I've been to Dubrovnik, Split and the walled city of Trogir. They were excellent! I'd like to go island-hopping there!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Roland
Helmsman
Posts: 4083



22526 Gold -

PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salty Dog wrote:
So, Roland, do you recommend Albania and a tourist destination? I sure like visiting Croatia. I've been to Dubrovnik, Split and the walled city of Trogir. They were excellent! I'd like to go island-hopping there!

I think Albania has much potential for tourism, but that potential is currently not well realized. Being on the Adriatic, the coast has a mild climate and beaches. Further inland are impressive mountains. But much of inland Albania is not easy to get to. On my trip I saw the ruins of some medieval monasteries, but I'm not sure they are open to the general public.

Prices are low. If you like coffee, you can get good Turkish coffee or espresso just about anywhere. The popular regional liquor is rakia (plum brandy, essentially), which varies widely in quality. The cuisine has been described as Greek food with Turkish spices.

The one non-religious historical site I visited was the Skanderbeg Museum. Skanderbeg was a medieval military leader who led Albanian resistance against the Turks. The museum, however, displays the official nationalism encouraged by the communist Hoxha (pronounced Ho-ja) government, so it mixes medieval history with socialist realism.

There are also some Roman ruins, but I did not get to see them because of a change in our itinerary. The city of Durres, which now functions as the port city of Tirana, the national capital, was known in Roman times as Dyrrachium. It served as the western end of the Via Egnatia, the great Roman road that led to Thessalonica and on to Constantinople.

Outside Tirana, they don't see many foreigners in Albania. While America is popular there (unlike so much of the world these days), strangers might find it difficult to connect with Albanians directly. So you probably would not want to go far into the hinterlands without some local contacts.


Last edited by Roland on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Mr. Blue
Rigger
Posts: 1947



68403 Gold -

PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roland wrote:
The cuisine has been described as Greek food with Turkish spices.


I believe Greek food has been described as bad Turkish food, and Turkish food has been described as bad Greek food. So essentially we have a bad imitation of someone else's food topped with a bad imitation of someone else's spices, all cooked by someone who is neither of those someone elses? I hope its better than it sounds.

Laughing

Seriously, sounds like a vacation resort developer's dream come true, except for just one thing. The Mediterranean is the septic tank of the Mediterranean world these days, so I don't imagine swimming would be advisable, however beautiful the beaches.
_________________
" ... the mistakes that we male and female mortals make when we have our own way might fairly raise some wonder that we are so fond of it. " George Eliot
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Tavern All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group