This Just In!
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Airsaw
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 Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| headrock wrote: | P.S. as to gaming becoming a science - the University of Jerusalem is going to open a Gaming course as part of computer science. I've already contacted them in regards for enrolling... as a lecturer! Woohoo!  |
Good luck with that. I hope you get it
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kernok
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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I think that games that are released just before christmas (SMP did) contain more bug than others.
The thing is: developper are working hard and they can't test their own production (a test is always better if it is made by a guy that doesn't write the code) but the marketing laws are "impitoyables"!!!
thus we have a beautiful Pirates! with a few annoying bugs...
and once the game is sold in the shops, further developpement are never welcome because they don't bring new customers to the game...
rahhhh life's a bitch
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SlipperyJim
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Wolfwood & Airsaw. (Huh?)
No computer program of any complexity is ever bug-free. As far as that goes, Wolfwood is absolutely right. Airsaw, your military analogy doesn't wash. First some military software does have bugs (I know, I've had to support it). Second, the real hardcore military software is designed as a total solution. The software, the hardware, the users ... it's all carefully controlled. Most consumer programs (Windows, Office, games) are much more open-ended than that. And they have to run on every stinkin' piece of hardware that some low-budget geek decides to throw at them. And they have to share time with a host of other programs, such as antivirus utilities, Google search, weird drivers, etcetera....
Then again....
Consumers should be able to expect that their software will be delivered to them without any obvious bugs. Even most of the non-obvious bugs should be squished. Certain software vendors seem to understand this point, and others do not. We might always have a certain number of bugs, just like we'll always have to deal with a certain amount of other nuisances in life ... but let's try to minimize them.
FYI: Some cars are released with person-killing bugs. Remember the incredible exploding Ford Pinto?
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What? Oh, NOW I get it.... |
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Howie
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| SlipperyJim wrote: | | Airsaw, your military analogy doesn't wash. First some military software does have bugs (I know, I've had to support it). Second, the real hardcore military software is designed as a total solution. The software, the hardware, the users ... it's all carefully controlled. |
I hope you are wrong with this one Slippery... I don't feel like waking up one morning to a bunch of atomic mushroom clouds blossoming all around me just because a bug cropped up in some military software program... You know better then I do because you work in the field. I'm just a guy that likes to write and make comments on things. Don't listen to me...  Go figure... huh...  
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ruf
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Just to point out what is painfully obvious:
This thread started on Tues. July 26th saying the patch will be released "within 2 weeks." those two weeks would end on Tues. August 9th. it is now the Weds. August 10th....
 
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SlipperyJim
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Howie wrote: | | SlipperyJim wrote: | | Airsaw, your military analogy doesn't wash. First some military software does have bugs (I know, I've had to support it). Second, the real hardcore military software is designed as a total solution. The software, the hardware, the users ... it's all carefully controlled. |
I hope you are wrong with this one Slippery... I don't feel like waking up one morning to a bunch of atomic mushroom clouds blossoming all around me just because a bug cropped up in some military software program... |
I've never had to support the software that can make big mushroom clouds. I've been supporting simulation software, military databases, etcetera....
That said, I'd imagine the mushroom-cloud-making software is very carefully controlled. Human overrides at every step, multiple failsafes, that sort of thing. We haven't surrendered total control to Skynet ... yet.
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Guru
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Just to point out what is painfully obvious:
This thread started on Tues. July 26th saying the patch will be released "within 2 weeks." those two weeks would end on Tues. August 9th. it is now the Weds. August 10th....
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True, we'll probably experience the same that you veterans have seen so many times before, it will probably take at least another two weeks before the release  |
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Wolfwood
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Just to clarify my earlier statement... When I say that to expect a bug-free product is not realistic, I mean that from the perspective of someone who knows how the business works and how unlikely it is to chance.
I disagree with every stupid thing that companies do to get as much profit as they can as quickly as possible. That's the attitude that brings in the bugs and it should be chanced. We should have professional testing of products before they are given to consumers.
I'm just saying that it won't happen. There are lots of medicines, toothpastes, foodstuffs, programs, energy sources etc. that have never been tested before they've been put into practice. That's not going to stop. It should, but it won't during our lifetimes...
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rupertlittlebear
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Guru wrote: | | Quote: | Just to point out what is painfully obvious:
This thread started on Tues. July 26th saying the patch will be released "within 2 weeks." those two weeks would end on Tues. August 9th. it is now the Weds. August 10th....
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True, we'll probably experience the same that you veterans have seen so many times before, it will probably take at least another two weeks before the release |
Just another Lie from Firaxis. |
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b4lazarus
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| SlipperyJim wrote: | I agree with Wolfwood & Airsaw. (Huh?)
No computer program of any complexity is ever bug-free. As far as that goes, Wolfwood is absolutely right. Airsaw, your military analogy doesn't wash. First some military software does have bugs (I know, I've had to support it). Second, the real hardcore military software is designed as a total solution. The software, the hardware, the users ... it's all carefully controlled. Most consumer programs (Windows, Office, games) are much more open-ended than that. And they have to run on every stinkin' piece of hardware that some low-budget geek decides to throw at them. And they have to share time with a host of other programs, such as antivirus utilities, Google search, weird drivers, etcetera....
Then again....
Consumers should be able to expect that their software will be delivered to them without any obvious bugs. Even most of the non-obvious bugs should be squished. Certain software vendors seem to understand this point, and others do not. We might always have a certain number of bugs, just like we'll always have to deal with a certain amount of other nuisances in life ... but let's try to minimize them.
FYI: Some cars are released with person-killing bugs. Remember the incredible exploding Ford Pinto? |
Back in the '70's!!! I used to write M.E.A.R.S. documentation for a defense contractor that built computer power supplies and other op-amp based electronic components used in weapon systems, etc. This was a component level document that was written so that an E5 could comprehend and attempt up to a component level (transistor/diode/resistor or I.C.) repair in the field. The software that accompanied this document was broken down to the most basic level… and I’ll stop here because I don’t know if any of this is public domain information yet…
The point is that we could do this 30 years ago….. Complete and deliver a mass produced product (100’s of thousands) with documentation and software for dummy’s…. (Sorry to all the E5’s out there that take offence to that statement) but if it was possible to build complicated, fool proof components and software then, why have we digressed???
The answer to these questions is; that we have the knowledge, we have the technology, we have the means to deliver, but the only ones who can afford ALL the benefits of the strides we have made even 30 yrs. later is… the government….and they pay for it with your tax dollars!!!
The trickle down theory is still viable and the knowledge is mostly universal now, but, I guess if you want software that is bug free you should pay $250.00 instead of $50.00 and if you want a computer that can run anything and last a long time (more than one year) you should pay $5,000.00 instead of $1,000.00….I think you get my meaning.
The consumers on this planet still drive the equation of how well a product is built. You want cheap cars….you got them. You want cheap software…you got it.
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Nukenin
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:25 am Post subject: |
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One problem with PC games is the diverse hardware it can be run on. Just the graphics adapter and sound card/chipset alone can cause all sorts of shenanigans if they (or their drivers) differ from what was tested during the game's development/QA cycle. Running under an OS that provides common device drivers, while solving some of the hardware woes faced by DOS game developers, has created other problems--users that install the latest (often beta) device drivers for their hardware, users that upgrade their OS components (like DirectX) beyond what may have been available at the time of the game's development, and the like.
That doesn't excuse most of the bugs we see nowadays though--those stem from bad software engineering practice--poor coding, lackluster documentation, and shoddy QA. But anyone who uses any software knows that it's not just the game developers--it's everyone, with few exceptions.
Saying game players are paying beta testers is a tired cliché, but that doesn't mean it's erroneous. It simply means that repeating it ad infinitum isn't going to help or hinder the truth of it. And any software purchaser is probably going to be a paying beta tester. Visit Windows Update lately? Ever have to install a Service Pack?
Software developers (game companies and other companies alike) have gotten lazy. They know that hardware is constantly scaling up in performance, so they write less efficient code that will "work okay" on the state-of-the-art or next-generation hardware. They know that most of their customers are used to software patching, so they skimp on the QA a tad knowing that bugs found post release can be fixed in a patch.
Its not entirely the developers' fault, though--a lot is due to marketing. They push the games out too early--rush the developers--to meet deadlines and generate sales. The only reason they even support patching of released titles is customer retention. So for games that do not sell too well, getting a patch at all is a wonder.
The computer/video game industry is as much a cesspool of software engineering malpractice as any other software (or any computer-related) industry. You have occasional gems (and those should be rewarded!) but for the most part, the general incompetence is just a reality that you have to deal with if you want to buy and play computer/video games.
Singling out Firaxis and branding them "liars" seems just a little too pert and petty in light of the bigger, dimmer picture. IMHO.
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Nukenin
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:48 am Post subject: Re: This Just In! |
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I need to revisit the message that began this topic...
| Bakas wrote: | I have recieved and email from Firaxis about Patch 1.0.2! The message reads as follows:
"Patch 1.0.2 will be released within the next two weeks once testing is
complete with Take 2. =)" |
Reposted with my emphasis added--the fate of the patch is not in Firaxis' hands, it is in their new publisher's hands--Take 2 aka 2K Games.
One caveat is that, aside from any QA issues, this is a patch that will be applied to copies of the game released by the previous publisher--Atari. This may or may not create some propriety issues that need to be ironed out by Take 2's legal counsel, which would of course introduce even more delays.
Some would argue that Firaxis should just release the patch already if it's done (and presumably it is done since we've had reports of folks buying 2K Games branded 1.0.2 box copies), but this would put Firaxis' relationship with Take 2 at serious risk from a business standpoint. Personally, I could care less, but I'm not Firaxis.
On the other hand, it sure would be nice if 2K Games (Take 2, whatever) had a bloody active support link for Pirates! from their website. The only PC game they seem to list support/patches for is Stronghold 2. Sigh.
(Take 2 was never high up on my list of publishers to trust; I hope Firaxis didn't get into yet another mess.)
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rupertlittlebear
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Oh yes, there's the patch.
What? Vaporware again? |
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Howie
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| rupertlittlebear wrote: | Oh yes, there's the patch.
What? Vaporware again? |
Lets give them another month and see what happens.
After all we waited 17 years for this new game to come out so realistically waiting another 17 years for the patch to come along might be with in the realm of possibility. 
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rupertlittlebear
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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